Curse

Lord Sojar · Oct 01, 2007, 07:55 AM // 07:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by arcanemacabre

I definitely see what you're saying, Rahja, and I totally agree. I've never really noticed it before these past couple of weeks, either. One of the main reasons I was so addicted to Guild Wars was because it was a great game for my wife and I to play together. Well, the past couple of weeks, she couldn't play because of an injury to her right arm, and I played a bit on my own. I noticed how incredibly bored I got playing on my own. It then hit me - people play like this a lot.

Oh yeah, I was efficient. Got my heroes up to perfection, capped a ton of elites, even did a couple of dungeons all by my lonesome (also noticed how much easier certain things are, like the Golemancer quest, with just H/H). What I realized was that Guild Wars PvE is just a giant farming ground. I stopped playing after a week of that. Of course, if I continued playing, I'd have to start Pugging and PvPing or something. Yeah, cause I hate pretty much all grinding.

Still, it is fun playing GW with my wife, and the occasional get-together with friends, but alone? Hell no. The grind really shows itself when you play alone. At least it does to me. I start to feel like there is this "To Do" list: go cap these skills, try this build, farm this green, do these dungeons, grind these titles, uncover these areas of the map, etc. I just find it really hard to just "do stuff" for the fun of it unless there is someone else to enjoy it with me and discuss things.

Heh, and all this coming from the anti-social bastard that I am.

Right, and you are one of the few that has a dedicated partner to play with. I don't have anyone like that, so, many times I found myself very alone and I really started to hate the game I once so loved. Add in depression from my mother being so sick, and some other family issues, and I really hit rock bottom the other day. I essentially quit the game, realizing that I was wasting what little time I may have left with my Mom on a game that has betrayed what it promised me. I found myself wondering why I was playing a game that was something completely different from what I was attracted to in the first place when I started playing 27+ months ago.

dameros · Oct 01, 2007, 07:56 AM // 07:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rahja the Thief

That vision is all but gone now, and it is my hope the vision finds a new emergence in Guild Wars 2.

Unlimited level cap? Different servers? World PvP? Sounds like a WoW clone wannabe to me.

Lord Sojar · Oct 01, 2007, 08:08 AM // 08:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by dameros

Unlimited level cap? Different servers? World PvP? Sounds like a WoW clone wannabe to me.

Indeed, some aspects do sound similar. However, the unlimited level cap may not matter, it will just give players who like to grind levels something to do. The problem will come if they make it so you have to be X level to do Y quest. Now, THAT will be an issue. Then again, it is a whole new game, so they do not have to uphold their promise of Time<Skill. That promise/motto only applies to GW1, and it has been broken.

I replied to a comment on GWO a second ago in my thread there. I thought it would provide clarification into my views.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ayarie

I have played since day one, and would consider myself a long time player.

However i dont believe they have betrayed Skill > time . And stated as much in other threads.

Titltes = Were meant to show others how YOU played the game and would naturally come with how you played. - I still believe this is true. if YOU choose to grind them out of sync and out of time of how you would otherwise attain them, blame yourself for trying to find the quick fix route not anet for putting it in there.

PvE Skills - Since the speed with which you would accumulate points to make these skills more effective would be dirrectly connected to your own skill (ie a skilled player would get these quciker and at maxium power alot quicker than someone significantly lower in skill who would have to do the most basic functions to get them). Balances out. If they need slightly adjusting, thats a topic for a different thread.

Prestige Armors - Wait ---- Should i have these at the character creation screen, because obviously my leet skills of being able to hit the "create" button and make up a name in the allocated slots means my skill > time - dontchathink? Prestige armors taking slightly longer than 2 minutes to attain is more of a reward to vetran players than a slap in the face and i haven't got a clue what you mean otherwise.

Apart from those its hard to see exactly what you mean? If you dont like GW then just quit. It is a game at the end of the day not a job you dont HAVE to play it - and one big long moan about your "malice", quite a strong word really given the subject matter, Seems out of place.

Naru

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rahja the Thief

Naru, I must again emphasize that I wasn't targeting specific issues within the game. But if I must discuss those, so be it.

As for PvE only skills. I am not against them, I love them. Having to grind to make them more effective seems out of place though. Perhaps a quest chain with each quest reward being increasing their efficiency would have been better.

Prestige armors.... well considering I own nearly every type of set available in the game, I have never complained about them, nor will I. Having to make the funds to purchase them is a legit grind if it is one at all. FoW armor was always a grind, but in addition to the grind, there is a series of quests that tests your groups skill to be able to even craft it. This exhibits Skill>Time. FoW armor is an interesting thing in the sense that it is Time>Skill>Time. Seems odd doesn't it?

Titles were introduced to reward longtime players. I am not opposed to titles such as Protector titles, cartographer titles, and most of the PvP titles. It is titles such as Asura, Norn, Deldrimor, Lightbringer, Vanguard, etc that are truly the issue at hand. These titles force a player to grind to get a reward that in all other chapters of the game was achieved by a suitable amount of grind. It takes time to acquire materials for the armor sets, why should it now require a lot more time on top of that to craft them? The fact is, it is grind stacked upon grind that is the issue. Certain amounts of grind are unavoidable in an MMO.

Remember, Guild Wars didn't promise NO Grind, ALL skill. They simply stated that Time<Skill. THat means that the skill would always outweigh the grind. Now, the scales are tipped the other way, and grind far outweighs skill. Guild Wars is still a game of skill, but the grind has taken precedence. That is the pity here.

Malice is the correct word, malice against lies.

zwei2stein · Oct 01, 2007, 08:19 AM // 08:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by dameros

Unlimited level cap? Different servers? World PvP? Sounds like a WoW clone wannabe to me.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeff Strain

. If you find yourself saying, "It's like WoW, but...," you're in trouble.

I wonder what it means if you find others saying, "It's like WoW, but...,". Seems like trouble.

---

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wrath of m0o

...
You know how long it got me to grind/farm my FoW armor?
I just broke SIX THOUSAND hours and just recently purchased my second set of FoW armor. And no.. i dont buy online gold.. I farmed/traded every coin.
...

You are doing it wrong, i got my (first and the only) fow set (minus feet) at 500hour mark, back in prophecies.

---

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rahja the Thief

It is the fact that Arena Net has betrayed veteran players, going back on the founding principle of the game, Skill is worth more then Time. Time spent rewards players with the riches, the special items, and the glory. Skill rewards nothing anymore. This design flaw can only fall on one... Arena Net.

I understand, and I realized that back when they released PvE skills.

It is kinda haertbroken feeling when you finally stop being blind and realize that your loved one was really cheating on you.

Shanaeri Rynale · Oct 01, 2007, 08:20 AM // 08:20

I agree with a lot thats been said, specifically the linking of PvE skills to title grind. I feel this was a bad decision A better one would have been to create another attribute line called something like 'special abillties' where you had to use attribute points in the same way as traditional builds. Scrap consumables and make PvE skills linked to the balanced attribute system. But for commercial reasons I don't think that will happen.

I have no real problem with grind for titles, so long as thats all the grind is for. Linking it to other rewards moves it from the optional line, to the mandatory.

It is obvious that Anet has very much shifted priorities from GW1 to GW2, and in the scheme of things that is a necessary move(after all Anet does not have limitless resources) so one suspects the introduction and expansion of grind for stuff is there simply to give people something to do.

I think the original plan was as stated. To release a new chapter/expansion every 6 months or so, while at the same time work on GW2. The game reached a point where that just would not work(certainly as far as PvP was concerned) so Plan B had to be thought up. What we got I think in plan B, was the remains of Ch4 plus enough grind to slowly stretch things out until the GW2 beta. Once the Gw2 beta is upon us the hype engine will be in full flow so those playing Gw1 will revisit tyria and/or wait patiently for Gw2 release.

One thing is for sure, I very much think GW1 will be abandoned by a lot of people by the time Gw2 is nears release.

CHunterX · Oct 01, 2007, 08:29 AM // 08:29

Five words:
Make all titles account-based.

Sure, some peoples work is going to go down the shitter, but the way the title/grind system is now, the game encourages you to play only one PvE character, I expect most players have only worked on a single toon, so the loss of work is going to be minimal

I absolutely hate that I have been reduced to playing only my Warrior character simply because so many titles that affect PvE are character based only, instead of account based, and I refuse to go out and re-grind areas 5 more times.

Lord Sojar · Oct 01, 2007, 08:33 AM // 08:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shanaeri Rynale

I agree with a lot thats been said, specifically the linking of PvE skills to title grind. I feel this was a bad decision A better one would have been to create another attribute line called something like 'special abillties' where you had to use attribute points in the same way as traditional builds. Scrap consumables and make PvE skills linked to the balanced attribute system. But for commercial reasons I don't think that will happen.

I have no real problem with grind for titles, so long as thats all the grind is for. Linking it to other rewards moves it from the optional line, to the mandatory.

It is obvious that Anet has very much shifted priorities from GW1 to GW2, and in the scheme of things that is a necessary move(after all Anet does not have limitless resources) so one suspects the introduction and expansion of grind for stuff is there simply to give people something to do.

I think the original plan was as stated. To release a new chapter/expansion every 6 months or so, while at the same time work on GW2. The game reached a point where that just would not work(certainly as far as PvP was concerned) so Plan B had to be thought up. What we got I think in plan B, was the remains of Ch4 plus enough grind to slowly stretch things out until the GW2 beta. Once the Gw2 beta is upon us the hype engine will be in full flow so those playing Gw1 will revisit tyria and/or wait patiently for Gw2 release.

One thing is for sure, I very much think GW1 will be abandoned by a lot of people by the time Gw2 is nears release.

Yes, I believe that is true as well Shan. What I am afraid is really going to happen though, is all of the original players of Guild Wars are just going to abandon the game completely. This will only hurt Arena Net, but it is their own greed that has brought this upon them.

Oh, the hype machine for Eye of the North was basically just as terrible as Halo3. Halo3= "Finish the fight!" GW:EN = "Return to Tyria!" They are basically the SAME hype machine, just with a different game. Granted, Halo3 was a bit more out of control hype wise, but Microsoft also has an infinite amount of money (not infinite truly, but close enough) Give Arena Net that much money, I am sure they would have done the same thing. The pity is, $$$$>Players. Again, this is true of all large companies, with the exception of ONE. Newegg.com seems to have preserved their customer orientation despite their massive growth. I have never seen such an outstanding company like Newegg. Pity they cannot pass a few words of wisdom to Arena Net.

Quote:

Originally Posted by CHunterX

Five words:
Make all titles account-based.

Sure, some peoples work is going to go down the shitter, but the way the title/grind system is now, the game encourages you to play only one PvE character, I expect most players have only worked on a single toon, so the loss of work is going to be minimal

I absolutely hate that I have been reduced to playing only my Warrior character simply because so many titles that affect PvE are character based only, instead of account based, and I refuse to go out and re-grind areas 5 more times.

Actually, making the titles account based won't solve much either. It still would have grinding mandatory (that is if you want 1/8 of the GW:EN content). And actually, it is quite the opposite. Most players that are veteran players (pre Factions or even pre Nightfall) worked on multiple characters because Arena Net didn't have these grindfest titles in place, so you could have fun with different play styles, whereas now, you basically have to play 1 character class in order to ever achieve all the titles required for specific things (like Hall of Monuments, Rainbow Phoenix, etc)

dameros · Oct 01, 2007, 08:35 AM // 08:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by CHunterX

Five words:
Make all titles account-based.

/ agree.

I definitely think that the GWEN faction titles should be account based. Not all of them though, such as survivor, skill hunter etc etc.

But now as I think of it, it wouldn't be a bad idea.

wilson · Oct 01, 2007, 08:39 AM // 08:39

Excellent post. I still like GW, despite there being so many things I never wanted to see in this game. What I have been doing lately is retreating to the small niches I still enjoy. While giving up on pretty much everything else.

Shanaeri Rynale · Oct 01, 2007, 08:40 AM // 08:40

More Account based would certainly help.

I think it's a bit strong calling it greed. Anet had to do something as they have limited resources, so it was either put everything they had into something that was breaking at the seams(trying to balance the game) or introduce stuff that would keep things in a slowly declining holding patten until GW2. Knowing that when GW2 was out, much of GW1's veteran population would crash anyway.

It's not a choice I would have wanted to make.

trielementz · Oct 01, 2007, 08:43 AM // 08:43

You know what's sad? The CMs have previously stated that they believe only the dissatisfied will post in forums, not those who are happily playing. As such, all such threads are to be weighed very very very cautiously.

However, I see no other way of letting them know how many players are disappointed with the direction Guild Wars is heading towards. We can't let our money do the talking since there's no subscription fee. We continue to purchase the expansion based on the belief that things will be better. We continue to play because we're attached to the game still. There is practically no other way for us to demonstrate our discontent, other than post in forums.

I wonder if threads like this will ever go anywhere, instead of simply registering an insignificant blip on some ANet employee's radar.

sindex · Oct 01, 2007, 09:03 AM // 09:03

Yeah I realize what you’re saying Rahja. I have been off and on Guild Wars recently, but I can see what you mean by anti-social behavior taking root in GW. Nevertheless I have really been put off by the grind that was introduced in EotN. I think your missing the point about the whole jade and amber grind, which latter turned into straight grind. At least then you got something physical for your work, which you could sell.

The problem is A-net half listens to the community or a direct miscommunication from the CR people. Every time a brand new shiny toy gets shown into GW, it always comes with an evil accessory that is tagged along with it. Sorry for the metaphor, but it’s the best way to explain it.

Take for instance what happened after Nightfall came out; one of the developers (interview^1) talked about how everyone actually loved the new title grind and PvE only skills. However we as a community talked about it time and time again, how we despised the grind but did enjoy the PvE only skills. The community begged and pleaded on these forums not to pull the same stunt again in EotN, for that was the majorities fear.

I also agree with your point that it is part the community’s fault how GW has turned out to be. However I like to add the “press” to that statement (if you don’t mind). I know I have been guilty of some angry out bursts; at and against A-net’s behalf. However if you remember some of the stuff was already taking root way before when Prophecies first came out. How many people ask for “WoW or EQ” stuff to be added to the game? Every time I hear the same ploy about mounts should be a must in the game because their “cool,” gets me pretty T-off. Without giving the reasoning they just exhume the “cool factor,” (no logic or anything).

I can probably tell all the people who are looking towards GW 2 to become your savor, "that it’s not going to happen." If anything I can see the grind becoming worse and even some of the recent bad aspects that have dragged on in the first GW, become spread out to the next rendition.

One last comment on this, before I turn in for the day. You have to read Jeff Strain’s article on MMO’s (Speech^2) if you want to get a serious taste of irony on this side of GW. Strain’s attitude throughout the speech comments on the fact, you don’t need to copy and paste from others but the key lies in innovation.

^1Gamespot interview on EotN.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ben Miller

“In Nightfall, the Sunspear and Lightbringer titles were well received. We are going to be expanding that mechanic to include new groups that players can form allegiances with.”

^2 Jeff Strain’s GC Speech ‘07

Lord Sojar · Oct 01, 2007, 09:10 AM // 09:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ben Miller

“In Nightfall, the Sunspear and Lightbringer titles were well received. We are going to be expanding that mechanic to include new groups that players can form allegiances with.”

By who? People leaving WoW and joining Guild Wars? No one liked the grind involved, it was against the Guild Wars motto. Well received as in people accepted it and went on with the game? Sure. Well received as in like...Oh, I think not dear my dear buddy Ben.

FelixCarter · Oct 01, 2007, 09:13 AM // 09:13

A MUST READ

This is a powerful piece of writing from someone who has obviously been around since the dawn of Guild Wars.

I can say - without a shred of doubt in my mind - that if the game was still skill>time, I would not have finished it. It was well balanced and the gameplay was very fine-tuned back when Prophecies was released.

Faction - like the OP stated - was controversial when it came to its success. I, personally, did not like Factions. But it was a solid game.

Nightfall was - and still is - my favorite. However, the absence of nerfs, buffs, and overall unbalancing of skills (both PvP and PvE) would have made the chapter even more enjoyable.

Guild Wars has changed. Both in gameplay and in community.

As ANet sets their eyes on Guild Wars 2 and the future, it is my hope that at least one of them has read the OP's post and will remember:

Skill > Time

free_fall · Oct 01, 2007, 09:14 AM // 09:14

Yes, a large part of the community has become very selfish and self-absorbed. There is an attitude in the longer-term players towards the newer ones of "I got mine, let them get theirs" - that "no one showed us how to do it, we had to figure it out for ourselves, let them do the same, especially as how I'm soooo 1337 and far too busy to waste my time showing them'.

It's become very much like high school, where the seniors shun the freshmen because, well, as seniors, they're soooo cool and freshmen, well, they're dorks. Conveniently forgetting that they, themselves, were once the dorks, apparently preferring to believe they sprang fully-formed from the forehead of Zeus.

As you pointed out, while the game has certainly changed (sometimes for the better, sometimes not) over time and is no longer quite the same game we became so fond of, it's equally true that much of this change can be, if not totally ignored, then grudgingly tolerated and we continue to have fun with it.

Equally true is that we get back from the community what we put into - if we put nothing in, we get nothing in return.

Even the more experienced of us can use a hand from time to time - by extending a hand to the newer players, we'll usually find a hand extended to us on those occassions we could use one ourselves.

Edge Martinez · Oct 01, 2007, 09:29 AM // 09:29

I agree it's too late to change GW1. I just wonder, like trielementz, if posting even accomplishes anything anymore. How seriously do they take the couple thousand people who post, compared to the millions (?) who just grind away? If everyone who posts on the forums were to stop playing, it'd be like scooping a bucket of water from the beach to make the ocean go down. All it seems to do is create anymosity between players quite often.

As for the grinding, I guess I got angry at it much earlier than everyone else. I didn't like the fact that we had to stop saving the world from an undead menace bent on conquering it, to go impress a bunch of tree goths and pirates without water by doing the same arena fights over and over, or a bunch of quests like finding some dude's art supplies, or locating a rare species of bird. The end is coming... do I help fight it, or locate Bob's paintbrush? There was nothing like that in Prophecies.

Friday · Oct 01, 2007, 09:30 AM // 09:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by CHunterX

Five words: Make all faction titles account-based.

There, fixed that for you, because:

Quote:

... but the way the title/grind system is now, the game encourages you to play only one PvE character...

With HoM the way it is now, and the PvE skills effectiveness tied to their faction title track level - this is exactly what has happened. I have 13 char slots, but since NF's LB and SS titles and now specifically GW:EN... only one char has seen play.

I used to love doing things on different chars, just for the change of pace each class provides and because its great to have all the classes available for guild outings, wherever we might go. Now, after having taken my Necro thru GW:EN, I decided last night to take my Monk up North to join her sister.... and she got as far as Siffhalla, and just lost steam... to do all of the same things over and over again just to get that Norn armour she likes, and use some of the skills she wants to try out.... pffft, she went home to the Guild hall and told her Warrior, Paragon, Mesmer, Ele, and Rit sisters to stay on vacation. Necro will max her HoM requirements and thats it, if I actually have the heart to go that far.

The PUG is dead and that is just a simple truth. The pug died when the designer's got lazy and increased the difficulty levels by simply ramping up a mobs health bar and damage output, by simply ramping up the sheer numbers of foes in a mob, by simply adding environmental effects that punished certain classes, by simply creating endgame/elite areas that were only completable in a reasonable time by a cookie cutter class and team build. That is the death of the pug - it was the end of any acceptance of any form of skill bar experimentation, it ended the formation of pugs to play an area just for the sheer fun of it because of the time it takes for non-cookie-cutter teams to get thru, it created the class rejection we see in most areas, it simply just destroyed the social community fun of PUGGING!! And yes, There is only one set of shoulders that that can be laid on.

Rajah, It makes me sad when I see you write the way you do - to me, you have always been what I consider a GW society mainstay. Your involvement in the community (in it's broad sense) of GW has been fantastic. Your bright dedication to making GW a better MMO experience for everyone has encouraged me in my own RP activities in-game. But I see, understand and accept your frustration and anger with a wonderful environment that has degraded beyond anyone's ability to repair it, because of the game Designer's own actions/attitude shifts.

Rajah, my thoughts are with you in what must be a very tough time in your personal life.

Fight Well
Friday

FelixCarter · Oct 01, 2007, 09:33 AM // 09:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by free_fall

Equally true is that we get back from the community what we put into - if we put nothing in, we get nothing in return.

Even the more experienced of us can use a hand from time to time - by extending a hand to the newer players, we'll usually find a hand extended to us on those occassions we could use one ourselves.

But that type of equivalent exchange has almost completely dissapeared from Guild Wars, it seems.

With recent dupe-witch hunts, /report slappers, and common scammers, players feel they have to be on their toes - even when they're in an outpost.

A sad example was when I was giving out MSKs (Monk Starter Kits) to Monks in Shing Jea Monestary that were below level 10. While giving them out, I occasionally recieved a "thank you"... But that's not what I wanted, nor is that the point.

The point is, after giving various Monks starter kits, many of them informed me that I was going to be reported for duping and scamming.

It was at that point that I started asking myself, "Why am I doing this, then?"

I don't want to believe this is the usual case when it comes to generosity in Guild Wars, but I have started to think otherwise...

With the current game-system, I trust my heroes' hand more than a players hand... And that should never ever happen.

Smoke · Oct 01, 2007, 10:25 AM // 10:25

Rahja, Rahja, Rahja, you mate are an absolute legend for putting such a post together, you just showed Anet how they dropped the ball and how damn big it is.

Some titles are absolutely useless, if people gave it a bit of thought they might see that they dont do anything else but encourage grinding (as Rahja stated in his post) and yea ill go as far as saying they did destroy the game play. Ive started playing GW a month after the release of Prophecies, the game was such a joy to play, you would start 1 char - finish the game - unlock whole bunch of skills - play some pvp - start another one, it wasnt a grind, it was a adventure.

Another thing that strikes me is what the community has become, i can recall the days where every town you visit, there would be someone offering help, now days with the big help of titles, majority is way to competitive about them or just too busy brainlessly grinding to help anyone.

And if you come to this post saying that Rahja is wrong, you my friend, either started playing the game after Factions, nightfall, GW:EN or have absolutely no life whatsoever, and yes i do know Legendary Wallhugers, Holy Zoom around in a worm for hours on end, Blessed by ebaying gold, buying tickets and idling for days on a round platform, the list goes on, and yea the grinding has/is destroying their life, how people fail to see that is beyond me ...

There are few titles that are worthy of staying in the game that dont require grinding, but i guess ill leave them for another post that i might just go over every title and give a logical (theres is a big word for ya) explanation why it should or should not be in the game, and maybe give few better alternatives to achive few things without grinding.

Cheers

Kay84 · Oct 01, 2007, 10:26 AM // 10:26

Interesting post Rahja, especially the self(and community)reflection part. I wonder where the 'inner hatred' you talk about comes from.